A Sense of Doubt blog post #2672 - Hurt Feelings and Lost Opportunities: An oral history of the original, doomed JLA+AVENGERS crossover parts 1-2
BIG share today.
This one took a long time to put together because all the image files had to be snipped and uploaded.
Content from here:
https://www.comicsbeat.com/jla-avengers-1983-oral-history-part-1/
“WHEN TITANS CLASH!”
An examination and oral history of the crash and burn of the original JLA/Avengers project
The collected JLA/Avengers was released in late 2004. In addition to reprinting the four-issue miniseries jointly published by Marvel and DC Comics, the slipcased hardcover had plenty of extras. One of those pieces was going to be a history of the project, covering why it didn’t originally happen in the early 1980s. KC Carlson was asked to write it, and he researched and assembled many comments from the magazines and publicity pages of the time.
The following is that piece, never previously published, probably because it wasn’t very flattering. Note that there are references in the below to “2004 interviews”. I believe, but no longer have any evidence, that KC conducted those conversations himself at the time. He, unfortunately, no longer remembers, as it was twenty years ago, and he has since been diagnosed with progressive memory issues. For that reason, this will likely also be his last published piece of original writing. — Johanna Draper Carlson
By KC Carlson
George Pérez: “It just ended up being one thing after another — accusations both from DC and Marvel towards each other — until I realized there was a lot more private politics that seemed to be going on which were killing the book I really wanted to work on. After a while I became very bitter about the entire thing. It was never more apparent to me that, as much as I love drawing comics, it’s still a business, and politics and petty squabbles can kill a project, even such a potential money-maker.” — Modern Masters Volume 2: George Pérez, 2003
George nailed it. If there ever was a single comics project that embodied company politics, petty squabbles, and flying accusations, it was the original JLA/Avengers crossover, scheduled to be jointly published between Marvel Comics and DC Comics in the summer of 1983 — the fifth in a series of highly successful team-ups. Pairing the legendary Justice League of America (JLA) and the mighty Avengers, this project would include virtually all of the quintessential characters from the two companies’ lineups.
But despite the fact that producing this titanic team-up was akin to printing money for the publishers, these comics were anything but easy to put together. There were many business and legal requirements to settle before just the right creative team could turn loose their imaginations on this unprecedented, historical project. The creators could not get too carried away — production of the books required a regular system of approvals from both sides of the publisher fence, at every step of the way. In some ways, it’s a small miracle that four of these super-crossovers had made it out the door relatively unscathed. Five might be pushing it…
The story of the original JLA/Avengers crossover is one of failure and betrayal of trust. One of hurt feelings and lost opportunities (and fortunes) and of hatred between people that exists to this day. It’s not a story that wants to be told, as many of the principals do not want to revisit the bad memories. Because of this, some of its secrets may never be unlocked and will continue to exist only as speculation among comics historians.
This is not your usual rah-rah “aren’t we great?” piece you normally see in these kinds of books. The following is not pretty.
(Note: All dates of publications are approximate, due to the varying necessities of periodical distribution, but generally are within a few days of the stated date.)
JLA/AVENGERS TIMELINE
The original Superman and Spider-Man pairing was published in 1976, and its inevitable sequel appeared in 1981. These were quickly followed by a Batman/Hulk teaming, also in 1981. The fourth crossover, Uncanny X-Men/New Teen Titans, is in the works as this timeline begins.
Early 1982: Contracts are signed for more Marvel/DC crossovers, including JLA/Avengers. Under the terms of the contract, DC would take responsibility for editorially producing the book, while Marvel was responsible for the marketing and distribution of the project. One editor from each company is to be chosen to edit and coordinate the project together. DC selects current JLA editor Len Wein. According to a subsequent 1984 uncredited article in Marvel Age #19, Marvel selects editor-in-chief Jim Shooter. This is later a major point of confusion among the creative team, most of whom are under the impression that Marvel’s designated editor for the project is longtime Avengers editor Mark Gruenwald.
Mike Carlin: “I was Mark Gruenwald’s assistant at the time of JLA/Avengers but have to admit that the project really didn’t get far enough for me to get to edit. I do recall that Mark, as editor of the Avengers, was involved, in that he read and signed off on the plots. He would mark up the plots and discuss his concerns with Shooter.” –2004 interview
The contract also stipulates that “Marvel and DC shall jointly agree on mutually acceptable modifications,” a phrase that would have much larger ramifications as well.
Soon, a creative team is agreed upon. Current JLA writer and past Avengers scribe Gerry Conway is a natural choice for plotting the book, and Conway’s occasional Hollywood writing partner — and acclaimed past Avengers writer — Roy Thomas will provide the script. Chosen to pencil the momentous team-up is the self-proclaimed man “born to draw this comic” — George Pérez. Pérez is arguably the hottest artist working in comics at this point, largely based on his current work for DC’s New Teen Titans, but his background also includes lengthy stints on both Avengers and JLA. Dick Giordano, one of comics’ top inkers when he isn’t chained behind DC’s Vice President – Executive Editor desk, is selected to ink the project.
(Interesting aside: Roy Thomas, Len Wein, and Gerry Conway were no strangers to corporate politics, as they all previously served as Marvel’s editor-in-chief at various times in the 1970s, although Conway’s tenure was incredibly brief. Conway had also been an editor at DC ,and Thomas and Wein were current DC editors at the time of this project.).
Conway is given the go to start writing the plot.
August 1982: The Comic Reader #203 reports that “1983’s summer inter-company special will be DC-produced and will star the Justice League of America and the Avengers.” This is the first public mention of the project.
August 10, 1982: Marvel and DC Present: Featuring The Uncanny X-Men and the New Teen Titans is released. It is the fourth superhero crossover between the two companies.
November 1982: The Comic Reader #206 reports that “Marvel and DC are working out details which would make the X-Men/New Teen Titans specials an annual event. There will be two separate DC/Marvel team-ups in ‘83, the other involving the first meeting between the Justice League of America and the Avengers.”
November 1982: Shooter, according to the Marvel Age article, is concerned that he has not yet seen a plot and attempts to contact Giordano. After many unanswered calls, Giordano indicates that a plot is on the way. Considering the size and magnitude of this project, and the added time needed for approvals from all parties, Conway is very late with the plot.
January 1983: The Comic Reader #208: “The DC/Marvel team-ups of 1983 will both be produced under the auspices of the DC editorial offices. May’s Avengers/Justice League team-up will be by Roy Thomas, Gerry Conway, and George Pérez, with Marvel handling the promotion; and Marv Wolfman and Pérez will handle the fall New Teen Titans/X-Men team-up.” TCR #210 (April 1983) updates the release date on JLA/Avengers to June ‘83.
February 23, 1983: Marvel receives the plot, and Gruenwald and Shooter reject it. [You can read it here.]
Jim Shooter: “I’m afraid that the first try at the Avengers/JLA plot isn’t acceptable, or even close. The problems are many, but there’s no point in listing them and getting bogged down in details because the whole thing just doesn’t make sense. Why is any of this stuff happening (other than because the writer says it is) and why are all these people doing strange things? I find very few solid reasons or motives for the actions of the characters. — Shooter letter to Giordano, February 25, 1983 (from Marvel Age #19)
Conway’s plot was written “Marvel style,” which is simply a description of the action and major plot beats of a story without the stage directions and dialogue that a full script would include. “Marvel style” was the preferred style of plot for many artists — George Pérez included — as it gave them the freedom to more fully “direct” the action and the storytelling of the comic.
George Pérez: “– with all due respect to Gerry, this was just a job to him, and there were enormous plot holes, including stuff that seemed to be out of character for some of both the Marvel and DC characters. ‘They’re only acting this way because it gets us to this next point,’ as opposed to acting in character and letting that motivate what happens next.” — Modern Masters Volume 2: George Pérez, 2003
Pérez isn’t overly concerned with this, as he’s used to working in this style — and working with Conway — and knows that it will be part of his job to tighten up the plot when he paces the story.
Mike Carlin: “Mark (Gruenwald) was concerned that the first plot wasn’t good. There were a lot of things that didn’t make sense, and he gave Shooter notes on it.” — 2004 interview
Roger Stern: “I had come into the office and, since I had recently become the writer of the Avengers, I asked if I could see the plot to make sure that the Avengers were being played in character. I remember that I was sitting in Mark Gruenwald’s office with Mark and Jim [Shooter] and maybe Mike Carlin. Anyway, they basically told me not to worry: ‘As soon as they [DC] send us the new plot, we’ll show it to you.’
“The first one was rejected. They then proceeded to outline the first plot for me, and it was pretty obvious why it had been rejected. As I recall, the villains were Kang and the Time Lord, and there was an element of time travel involved, with various Leaguers and Avengers being flung through time. The part I remember most vividly was a scene set in the past with Superman on Galactus’ world ship. Superman discovered that Galactus had an actual written list of the next planets he was planning to eat, and Krypton was on the list. What does Superman do? In the proposed plot, he uses his heat vision to erase Krypton from the list! The implication was that Superman didn’t care if Galactus ate all those other planets. What a swell guy! At first, I thought Mark and Jim had to be kidding me, but they were serious! I mean, Superman is DCs flagship character. And DC approved that?! Mark just nodded and rolled his eyes. I was flabbergasted.
“The problem was that Gerry’s plots had a tendency to be very loose, with scenes that might have looked cool but didn’t always make much sense. And there was no sense to some of that stuff. Superman would face off against Thor, for instance, while the other Avengers and Justice Leaguers seemed to just stand around, waiting their turn. There didn’t seem to be any motivation for why any of the action was happening. One of the things we [at Marvel] were most concerned about was the [JLA/Avengers] plot should have characters doing something for a reason and with reason.
“Gerry, for all of his talent as a writer, seemed to approach comics as just another job in those days. But this wasn’t just another job, this was a big deal.” — 2004 interview.
Tom DeFalco (Executive Editor under Shooter at the time of JLA/Avengers): “Mark Gruenwald and I were given the plot to read. Neither one of us had any axes to grind. We discussed it a bit before we read it, and this might be a little sleazy on our part, but we thought that unless the plot really didn’t work, we were going to approve it. There was a little ‘just get it done’ attitude. We were shocked at how bad it was.” –2004 interview
Jim Shooter: “The plot for JLA/Avengers had indeed been submitted to me before George Perez started drawing it. It was weak, full of holes, and replete with continuity glitches. I rejected it in writing. Dick Giordano subsequently telephoned me to ask if I would mind if he told Gerry Conway that DC had rejected the plot instead of me, for some strange reason of internal politics which I never did understand. I said I didn’t care what DC did internally as long as I got a revised plot.” — Wizard #35, July 1994
It appears that the plot Shooter refers to in his letter of February 25 is actually Conway’s second draft of the plot. Thomas confirms that Conway wrote a revised draft.
Roy Thomas: “Gerry Conway did a plot, which Jim Shooter didn’t like. Shooter had some objections — some of them were doubtless valid, some of them maybe less so — but, you know, that’s a matter of opinion. So Gerry rewrote the plot, slightly, trying to take into account what he thought were Shooter’s objections. But this was before Jim had actually put down anything in writing — I must say, somewhat insultingly — in a letter to Dick Giordano. Something like, “Okay, now let’s have a real plot,” and things of that sort. I thought it was a very unprofessional way of handling things. Dick elected not to bother to show the letter to Gerry, figuring it would just cause bad blood between them.” — Comics Interview #6, August 1983
There is a possibility that the first version of Conway’s plot was only seen by Wein and Gruenwald. Len Wein’s memories of the project are admittedly “fuzzy,” but he recalls that he had discussions with Gruenwald before sending the plot to Pérez. Mike Carlin speculates that Gruenwald may have brought Shooter in when he continued to be unhappy with Conway’s plot revisions. This would explain why Shooter appeared to have no “official” response to the first plot, per the Marvel Age article.
Pérez recalled that Shooter’s rejection of the plot “distressed me, but was understandable” given the plot problems. He also indicated that prior to the rejection, Giordano had not read the plot.
George Pérez: “After it was rejected, in order to understand what was going on, he (Giordano) did read the plot. Not yet knowing what Jim’s objections were, he saw a lot of things that he didn’t understand and would have objected to. So Jim had a legitimate point.
“The big trouble was trying to specify what was wrong. Jim just sent a very short, curt letter saying it was ‘unacceptable. Try again guys.’ That was it– without dealing with the specifics, which was what we basically wanted. If the specifics could be ironed out, maybe the plot could be salvaged. If not, we’d have to do another plot.” — Comics Interview #6, August 1983
While the plot was being scrutinized and ultimately rejected, another problem came to light. DC editor Len Wein was primarily dealing with Marvel editor Mark Gruenwald, leaving Marvel’s editor-of-record — Jim Shooter — out of the loop. At laid-back DC, the editors in the trenches dealt with the day-to-day issues of their projects and the executive editor (Giordano) was only brought in on major problems (which explains why Giordano had not read the plot until the problems began). At Marvel, Shooter, as Editor-in-Chief and, more pointedly, as the editor of this project, preferred that everything go through him. There is speculation from many of the principals that Shooter was offended by this lack of protocol. The bigger mistake may have been that Giordano had neglected to inform Wein that Shooter was the go-to guy on the project, and Wein assumed that his contact was Gruenwald.
Another problem made worse by conflicting styles was that, under Giordano’s laid-back tenure, DC editors would more often accept a verbal approval. Marvel, under Shooter, preferred the more formal written confirmation required in the actual contract. Shooter, already burned by DC’s slack protocol and concerned by the lack of quality in the Conway plot, was understandably concerned with keeping a tight rein on the project.
At some point after this, Wein contacted Shooter and with Gruenwald, discussed Shooter’s concerns with the plot via phone. The three came up with some possible solutions to plot problems. Wein asked if this discussion was sufficient to allow George Pérez to get started penciling the book. Shooter said “No.” He insisted on seeing a written plot, as per the contract.
However, George Pérez had already been sent the plot by Wein.
George Pérez: “The really big trouble started when I talked to Len Wein and we came up with a few ideas about correcting the plot, We suggested a few ideas that I was led to believe were discussed with either Jim Shooter or Mark Gruenwald. Now, by this time the book was already getting quite a bit behind schedule. So I had to have an answer immediately and DC gave me the go-ahead, saying that the plot should be okay, because everything had been discussed. All that needed to be done was the formality of sending Jim Shooter a written plot. They told me to get started.” — Comics Interview #6, August 1983
The fact that Pérez had the plot at all was technically yet another breach of protocol by DC. And it was made worse by DC when Pérez was given approval to begin work — on an unapproved plot!
Exactly who gave Pérez the “go” order has always been under speculation. Wein had sent Pérez the unapproved plot, and the two of them had discussed it at length. However, the official DC statement on the incident appeared in a letter from Giordano to Shooter where Giordano accepted the blame and apologized.
Dick Giordano: “When we thought we had it (the plot) de-bugged, Len called you with an outline of the changes, to which you responded positively, saying you felt the changes would work. Len reported that conversation to me with the request from you that a new written plot be submitted. I thought this to be logical but largely a formality and ordered George Pérez to start drawing before the new plot was typed. In doing so, I had no intention of ignoring your wishes. I understood your conversation with Len to be a tacit approval of our modifications and desired to only to keep the project moving. I have since apologized to you for this seeming breach of protocol and trust that this unintentional mistake is not one of the reasons for your rejection.” — Giordano letter to Shooter, May 26, 1983 (from Marvel Age #19 and the first “Meanwhile…” column).
March 15, 1983: Coming Attractions, Marvel Age #4: “Marvel/DC Presents #2: The Justice League & The Avengers — Plotted by Gerry Conway. Scripted by Roy Thomas, Pencils by George Pérez. Inks by Dick Giordano. Thor vs. Superman! The Flash vs. Quicksilver! Hawkeye vs. Green Arrow! The matches you’ve always wanted to see as our heroes (and theirs) go barreling through time and space, at the command of Kang the Conqueror and the Lord of Time, in pursuit of the elusive Protosphere.” The one-shot is scheduled to ship on June 14, 1983, according to this listing.
This solicitation was a gaffe on Marvel’s part, as there wasn’t even an approved plot at this point in time. Obviously, this 64-page book was not going to make this scheduled ship date.
May 17, 1983: Shooter discovers that Pérez has already started penciling, although he has seen no revised plot. Shooter calls Giordano immediately and follows up with a letter the following day.
Roger Stern: “As I recall, we had just finished discussing the rejected plot, when Chris Claremont walked into Mark’s office and said that he had run into George at a convention that day and seen penciled pages for JLA/Avengers. Jim, Mark, and I must have looked totally slackjawed, because Chris just stood there looking confused like, ‘Is something wrong?’ Mark and I looked at Jim like, ‘You’ve got to stop this before it’s too late!’” –2004 interview.
Mike Carlin: “Shooter really flipped when he learned 21 pages were drawn and his (Avengers) editor was unhappy. That’s when he put his foot down.” — 2004 interview.
Jim Shooter: “… anticipating the possibility of a missed communication on a project this complex, I stated (in a previous phone conversation) that nothing should be considered approved by Marvel until you received approval in writing from me. I gathered that you understood and agreed.
“…Yesterday, I heard from various sources that George Pérez had begun penciling the story, though I still hadn’t received a revised plot…
“…I will be glad to look at copies of the twenty pages that you say George has drawn, along with a revised plot. Possibly the pages will be useable or salvageable…
“Again, no work on this project is to be considered approved until you receive approval in writing from me.” — Shooter letter to Giordano, May 18, 1983 (Marvel Age #19 has the full text)
While the project was already wobbly, with DC approving what appeared to be a terrible plot and exacerbated by other protocol oversights, this is the point where the wheels came off the project altogether, according to several Marvel staffers. Shooter was being gracious when he allowed that Pérez’s already penciled pages might be salvageable — by the terms of the contract, Marvel could have rejected the pages unseen. Inwardly, the Marvel contingent was appalled that DC would step so far over the line and blatantly and repeatedly ignore requests for written approval.
DC had screwed up big time. And now they had to scramble to save the project while facing distrust and intense scrutiny from Marvel — and specifically Jim Shooter.
To Be Continued…
Images of Pérez’s unfinished pages in this article come from Heritage Auctions and the blog of Tom Brevoort. Brevoort also posted Gerry Conway’s full original plot for the crossover earlier this year.https://www.comicsbeat.com/jla-avengers-1983-oral-history-part-2/
For Part 1 of this JLA/Avengers oral history, click here.
By KC Carlson
George Pérez: “I had been drawing for two weeks and was already starting page 21, when I received a call from Len Wein saying they needed to find out what changes I was making in the plot. (DC staffer) Joey Cavalieri had to do a piecemeal plot based on things I had changed — ideas, if not actual explanations — since I hadn’t quite worked out everything as I was going along yet.” — Comics Interview #6, August 1983
Gerry Conway, unwilling to do another draft of the plot, leaves the project at this point. Cavalieri, in consultation with Perez and Wein, cobbles together a new plot — draft #3 — and Giordano rushes it into Shooter’s hands.
May 20, 1983: In a letter to Giordano, Shooter rejects the new plot, stating that it is “substantively the same plot” and still “doesn’t make sense.” Shooter offers no specifics about his concerns.
May 26, 1983: Giordano sends Shooter a letter summing up DC’s version of the events-to-date. In excerpts reprinted in the Marvel Age article, Giordano takes the blame for giving Perez the go-ahead to start penciling before the plot was completely approved. Also covered: a statement indicating that if the project needed to be started over from scratch, the current creative team may be forced to withdraw due to previous commitments, a request for a “detailed, written list of changes requested” from Shooter, and an offhand comment which indicated that Giordano thought that Gruenwald — not Shooter — was Marvel’s editor on the project. However, in Giordano’s first “Meanwhile…” column on the topic, he claims that the Marvel Age article edited out substantial portions of his letter, including his apology for telling Pérez to begin work.
May 31, 1983: Shooter responds, correcting several of Giordano’s “impressions,” including that of Gruenwald’s actual role in the project, clarifying Shooter’s role in past crossovers, and reiterating that no plot had yet been approved by Shooter.
Roy Thomas: “I have had some contact with Mark Gruenwald to check out a few continuity things (while working on the revised plot), since Mark was the original Marvel editor who had approved, for the Marvel side, the basic plotline that Gerry did, only to have Shooter undercut him.” — Comics Interview #6, August 1983
Jim Shooter: “While he was never appointed ‘official consulting editor’ by us, Mark Gruenwald tells me that Len discussed very basic parameters with him and these are still okay by us. Mark insists that beyond fundamental ground rules, he never approved any plot. He is in complete agreement with me that the plots presented to us are unacceptable.” — Shooter letter to Giordano, May 31, 1983 (from Marvel Age #19)
June 15, 1983: Shooter sends Giordano a second letter, detailing his specific objections to the plot, per Giordano’s request. Giordano immediately sends Shooter’s list of concerns, the three previous versions of the plot, and copies of Pérez’s penciled pages to Roy Thomas. Although slated to dialogue the project, up to this point, Thomas has not actively been involved with its production. Giordano gives Thomas one week to “digest the material.”
June 23, 1983: Thomas and Giordano begin a series of phone conversations to work out the now-convoluted plot.
Roy Thomas: “When the plot was rejected, since Gerry didn’t want to work on it anymore, I agreed for a flat fee — in order to help Dick — to revamp the plot using most of the material George had already drawn, and to change the plot to try to take Shooter’s misgivings into account.” — Comics Interview #6, August 1983
Jim Shooter: “I’m not sure what went on at DC, but at one point Dick took me to lunch and asked that they be allowed to finish the book as originally plotted. Again, he cited DC’s internal political strife. His position was basically this: who cares if it’s wrong or bad, it’ll sell like crazy anyway. He confirmed those sentiments in a letter to me. Well, I cared if it was wrong or bad, and I insisted on corrections and a revised plot.” — Wizard #35, July 1994
July 13, 1983: Letter from Shooter to Giordano: “Still no plot. What gives?”
July 28, 1983: Roy Thomas delivers his completed plot to Dick Giordano. According to Giordano, a copy is hand-delivered to Shooter at the Marvel offices. DC receives no acknowledgment from Marvel regarding its receipt, but Giordano is unconcerned as both companies are deep in last-minute preparations for that year’s San Diego Comic Convention. Giordano later claims that this is the point where communications between the two companies really started to fray.
Roy Thomas: “We came up with a plot that I think had a few differences. Marv Wolfman, Len Wein, Dick, and other people who read this new plot seemed to think that it was considerably better. Or at least it dealt with Shooter’s objections — I mean, whether it’s better than Gerry’s, I don’t know.” — Comics Interview #6, August 1983
Tom DeFalco: “Mark and I discussed Roy’s reworked plot and basically came to the conclusion that Roy was a genius. He had managed to incorporate all of the artwork that had previously been drawn, followed the thrust of the original story, and answered all of Marvel’s concerns. We were in awe, and since we were both writers as well, a little jealous.”
August 1983: The Comic Reader #212: “The JLA/Avengers team-up has been removed from the schedule. Marvel has yet to approve a plot for the book.”
August 4-7, 1983: Shooter and Giordano meet at San Diego. According to Giordano, he asks Shooter if he’s read the plot. Shooter says no but indicates he has it with him and will try to read it during the Con. Giordano points out that it would be advantageous if he could, as the entire creative team was present at the convention and could work things out right there. However, the Marvel Age article indicates that Giordano hands Shooter Thomas’ revised plot (implying that this is the first time Shooter has seen it) and asks for “instant approval.”
Giordano denies asking for “instant approval,” and after attempting several unsuccessful attempts at getting together at the Con, he tells Shooter that if a new start date for Pérez isn’t determined by the end of August, they will lose Pérez due to other commitments. According to the Marvel Age article, Shooter states that he wants to get comments on the plot from Gruenwald and Avengers writer Roger Stern before he can comment on the plot. Unfortunately, nothing moves forward for almost two weeks, as most of the principals are “out of the office” during the busy convention season.
August 15, 1983: According to the Marvel Age article, Shooter returns to the office and finally reads Thomas’s revised plot. He gives a copy to Gruenwald (even though he was at the convention with Shooter) and sends a copy to Stern for comments.
Roger Stern: “I don’t remember ever getting a hard copy of the plot. Maybe it got lost in the mail — or in Marvel’s mailroom. That certainly wasn’t unheard of. Anyway, by the time I’d heard that there was a new plot, George was making noise about leaving the project.
“As late as things were by that time, the book should really have been rescheduled with a new plot, from scratch if necessary, so that George would have been able to draw it without any deadline hassles. And in a weird sort of way, that’s what eventually happened. It’s just too bad that it took so long.
“Of course, twenty years ago, Kurt (Busiek) wouldn’t have been ready to write the story. And now, George is an even better artist. Plus, the JLA/Avengers book now has more pages and much better printing, so maybe everything worked out for the best. What I find most unfortunate about the whole affair were the hard feelings that arose — mainly through miscommunication and misunderstanding.
“But what DC — even the DC guys who had once worked at Marvel — didn’t seem to understand is how much things had changed at Marvel, storywise. Marvel had grown so much during the late 70s that the old laissez faire method of batting out a plot and making sense of it later didn’t fly anymore. Plotting had taken on much more importance. If the plot didn’t hold together, it was like knocking over a row of dominos. There’s an old joke in the business: We’ll fix in the penciling — well, we’ll fix it in the scripting — or in the inking or (heaven help the poor colorist) in the coloring. But if the plot is solid in the first place, you don’t have to be playing catch-up farther down the line.
“The attitude we got from DC in those days seemed to be that this was another one-shot book that would sell regardless of the story’s quality. Whereas Marvel saw the project as a showcase for both companies’ greatest super-heroes. A lot of readers would see this and — if it were well done — hey, maybe they’d want to read more JLA and Avengers stories. With George drawing it, we knew it would look good, but if the story were lacking, why would they want to buy any more? Ah, I don’t wanna read about those guys. They all suck! As the writer of the Avengers, that was another major concern of mine.” –2004 interview
Meanwhile, Giordano made frequent attempts to contact Shooter by phone during August to no avail. The one time he actually got through to Shooter, Giordano indicated “he (Shooter) didn’t think that this was such a long time, since DC had withheld approval of his Superman/Spider-Man plot for two months.” Earlier in the month, an unnamed Marvel staffer expressed dismay to Giordano at the length of time it was taking Marvel to inform DC. “It’s been approved… I don’t understand the delay,” said the staffer.
George Pérez: “He (Shooter) did make a statement to Dick Giordano that when Paul Levitz had to approve his plot for the Superman/Spider-Man story, the second one, that it took about three months for an approval to be made. Whatever Paul’s reason, whatever bitterness that may have caused Jim, whether it’s understandable or not, is beside the point. It’s just unprofessional to let that mar your judgment.” — Comics Interview #6, August 1983
Roy Thomas: “Several weeks later, Shooter was, for all I could see, just sort of avoiding comment on it. I mean, Dick would try to call, and various things, and on some days he couldn’t even get Shooter to come on the phone to discuss it. He would just say, “I need another few days.” I don’t know how long it takes Jim to read and comment on 17 pages of a stream-of-consciousness plot. And since I refused to work with him directly — I would work with him only through Dick — obviously I’m not in direct contact with him at all.” — Comics Interview #6, August 1983
August 23, 1983: George Pérez gives an interview to Comics Interview, expressing his frustration with the situation and especially with Shooter. Pérez also decides that the interview will include his announcement that he is quitting the project.
George Pérez: “The book was supposed to be out three months ago. Granted, the plot wasn’t approved the first time, but everything since then is because Marvel Comics — excuse me, Jim Shooter — has not done a single thing to help it along. He’s procrastinated, ignored it, and actually made it seem that DC was the one that was constantly dragging their feet. But we couldn’t make a single move without Jim exercising his power of accepting or rejecting. The fact that he wasn’t even making a decision was the thing that finally did it. I mean it was procrastination. A rejection, we could have accepted. But the idea that he has not even bothered to take the time to give us an answer was the thing that made me realize that I don’t trust him any more.
“I gave Jim every benefit of the doubt. I was the last person who was not willing to accept the fact that this was being done on some level other than a professional level. As editor-in-chief, it was his duty to get that thing edited and either accept it or refuse it as quickly as possible. He did not do it. And I have no confidence that he will do it. I can’t wait any more. It broke my heart. I had been looking forward to this assignment before I had even turned pro. It was a pipe dream, the idea that someday maybe the JLA and the Avengers could get together. I never thought it would happen. I lived for waking up to get started on those pages. It’s the most heartbreaking decision I’ve ever had to make. I regret making it, but I don’t trust Jim Shooter. I just don’t think that he wants this project done.” — Comics Interview #6, August 1983
Jim Shooter: “The first time I knew George was angry at me was when I read an interview in a fan magazine in which he unjustly condemned me. Why he didn’t simply call me and ask me what was going on amazes me to this day. George shouldn’t make presumptions about my motives.” — Wizard #35, July 1994
George Pérez: “I haven’t talked to him (Shooter), because Dick Giordano felt that it was his responsibility to do so.” — Comics Interview #6, August 1983
Roy Thomas is also interviewed in a sidebar to Pérez’s interview.
Roy Thomas: “I think it’s a shame that a comics company is run that way, but that’s Marvel’s fault. I’m no longer there, so I don’t care. I just feel people ought to know what’s going on.” — Comics Interview #6, August 1983
George Pérez: “I may be speaking unfairly here, but I don’t think anything was going to please Jim at that point. I think Jim was personally affronted that, as far as he felt, he was being sidestepped in the production of the book — even though he wasn’t the editor. I believe Mark Gruenwald was. But he was editor-in-chief and he had final say.” — Modern Masters Volume 2: George Pérez, 2003
September 28, 1983: In a letter to Giordano, Shooter approves the revised plot. In it, he outlines his specific objections, mostly based on current continuity concerns. By this point, however, many of the others have abandoned the project.
September 30, 1983: Pérez and Marv Wolfman do an interview for the British fanzine Chain Reaction. Both are highly critical of Shooter’s actions, and Pérez blames Shooter for deliberately delaying his decision to approve the plot. Further, both creators indicate that they believe Shooter may have ulterior motives in not approving the plot.
October 27, 1983: The business people get involved. DC’s Paul Levitz (Vice President — Operations) and Marvel’s Mike Hobson (Vice President — Publishing) meet for lunch to hopefully find some solutions to the problems. Hobson agrees to write the first draft of a press release indicating that DC and Marvel’s creative differences had been resolved and that work on the project would resume. Levitz, if needed, would add his two cents to the document later. One of the points to be addressed in the release was a system that would ensure a quick approval — face to face, if possible. Hobson’s draft never materialized, despite Levitz’s frequent inquires to get the project moving again.
Jim Shooter: “The president and business affairs brass at Marvel backed my position to the point that they were willing to let the project die, taking perhaps several hundred thousand dollars off of our bottom line. They would have not allowed such an event to occur over some personal vendetta of mine, I assure you.” — Wizard #35, July 1994
November 1, 1983: Amazing Heroes #34 reports “Various problems with the JLA/Avengers team-up book have resulted in George Pérez leaving the project, even though over 20 pages were penciled. Don’t look for this one anytime soon.”
November 15, 1983: Buried within an article celebrating the first anniversary of Marvel Age (in Marvel Age #12), Marvel publicly admits that the project is “on hiatus.”
Mid-July, 1984: Marvel Age #19 goes on sale. In an uncredited article entitled “Behind The Lines: Special Report: The Story Behind the Avengers/JLA Team-up Controversy,” it is stated that “As of mid-May of 1984, Marvel has been advised of neither DC’s choice of an artist nor the progress of work on the book.” Further, the article indicates that there has been no contact between the two companies on the subject since the September 28, 1983, letter from Jim Shooter approving the (fourth version) of the plot, discounting the efforts of Levitz and Hobson to kick start the project in October and beyond.
July 1, 1984: Amazing Heroes #50 features an interview with Pérez where he explains his terms for getting the project back on track.
George Pérez: “They have to figure some kind of way wherein they can publicly acknowledge that Dick Giordano and Jim Shooter have kissed and made up, as it were.
“Obviously, it’s a lot more complicated than that but, basically, if the books are to be done… the only way I will work on it, is that an editor from both sides is picked to represent the companies and scripts have to be okayed in a one-day turnover. No more waiting weeks upon weeks and getting no answer.
“The editors involved have to be other than either Dick Giordano or Jim Shooter. If Jim Shooter’s still involved, I will not be involved. In that, obviously to be fair, Dick will not be involved if the top editor of the other company’s not working on it. After all the incredible mixup on Jim Shooter’s part, there is no way I was going to accept the assignment under the same conditions. Something has to be done to make working conditions a lot easier, wherein the political bullshit becomes something we don’t have to deal with, where we can just work on producing the best book possible.
“There are a few concessions that they have to make on my behalf. They gave me the option that, if I don’t want to finish the JLA/Avengers, I could have somebody else finish it and I’ll do the X-Men/Titans. But I’m not going to do the X-Men/Titans because I wanted to do the JLA/Avengers. If I don’t do the X-Men/Titans, they don’t want to do the JLA/Avengers. So, basically, the decision is mine. I can bury it upon saying that I don’t want to do the X-Men/Titans, which means that neither of them get done. I either do both or I do none. If I do none, then none get done.
“I’ve given the company a year to get their act together, and all they’ve done now is get everyone antagonistic towards each other. Now people start acting like grown-ups, like professional businesspeople, or… that’s it. There is no book. The fans are being ripped off by this type of behavior, they’re being cheated. I’m being cheated. Obviously, these books were part of my anticipated income for the year, and I did neither of them, as it turned out. I ended up missing two issues of the Titans, the Titans ended up skipping a month because of all this.
“Now if they want the book to go on, with me involved at least, they have to start acting like responsible editors realizing what they’re doing this comic for. For the money, granted. They’re also doing it for the fans. These are the books that the fans want. Let’s concentrate on that and forget the political garbage. It has no place in the situation and it’s just totally unfair to everyone involved.” — Amazing Heroes #50, July 1, 1984
September 1984: Dick Giordano responds to the Marvel Age article in two of his “Meanwhile…” columns. These appear in several January 1985 cover-dated DC comics. Giordano pretty much indicates that the project is dead.
September 1984: The Comics Reader #219: “The long-awaited, oft-delayed Justice League/Avengers crossover book has been officially canceled as of July 9th. Inter-company disagreements and recent developments in the JLA comic were thought to be reasons for terminating the agreement which had produced four inter-company publications over the past eight years.” (In an odd coincidence, this announcement appears in the last issue of this classic, revered fanzine.)
While the JLA/Avengers project was slowly falling apart, Shooter was actively involved in what would become the biggest Marvel project to date. Marvel Age #11 (February 1984) broke the story of “Cosmic Champions,” a 12-part mega-crossover, set entirely within the confines of the Marvel Universe and written by Jim Shooter! By the next issue of Marvel Age, the project was cover-featured under its new name — Marvel Super Heroes Secret Wars!
Tom DeFalco: “There really wasn’t any correlation between Secret Wars and JLA/Avengers. There were never any discussions about doing one over another. Secret Wars happened because Mattel was doing a toy line of our characters and they wanted a comic book to support the toys. It never occurred to us that Secret Wars was going to be the big deal that it ended up being. It was just a toy tie-in. It ended up being Marvel’s first million-seller — about 3 to 4 times the sales of any of the Marvel/DC crossovers.” –2004 interview
However, the announcement of Secret Wars fueled speculation that Marvel was only interested in doing future mega-crossovers with their own characters.
Mike Carlin: “The feeling at Marvel was definitely ‘Hey! We don’t need those other guys to do big crossover stunts. Why should we help them? Screw ‘em — we’re better. We know how to do this.’” –2004 interview
Tom DeFalco: “Sure, that attitude was around. Marvel had much better sales than DC at that point. We were basically doing the crossovers for PR and additional revenue. We knew that by doing the crossovers, we were exposing the DC characters to a wider audience.” –2004 interview
DC’s next big thing was what became Crisis on Infinite Earths. It began in 1985, although it had been in the planning stages for several years (long before Secret Wars). Fresh from not doing JLA/Avengers were artists George Pérez and Dick Giordano (although Giordano would have to drop out after a few issues). Editor Len Wein coordinated the whole thing and Marv Wolfman (the only non-JLA/Avengers guy on the team) wrote it. This project kick-started relaunches for many of the major DC characters — most notably Superman in 1986. With these projects, and more, DC probably realized that they didn’t need the other guys either.
Marvel and DC wouldn’t team up again for any cross-company comics until 1995. By that time the nature of the comic book business had changed once again, and a period of cooperation between the two publishing giants existed, at least for a short time. (Or, as more cynical observers noted, “sales were down — time for crossovers!”) Most of the players had changed as well. Both Shooter and Giordano were gone, moving on to different destinies.
The crash and burn of the JLA/Avengers project was a difficult lesson. Mistakes were made — George Pérez obviously should have never been given a “go” by DC before getting Marvel’s approval of the plot in writing. But the actual problems may not have been the hard-and-fast rules or contractual demands as much as a breakdown based upon two completely opposed editorial styles. In a recent article in Back Issue #1, Michael Eury explains:
“Dick Giordano was a ‘non-interference’ editor at Charlton Comics in the 1960s and during two later staff stints at DC and maintained that laid-back approach once he rose to DC’s top editorial chair. Dick preferred to select the right people for the job, then step back and let them work their magic. This succeeded more often than not, but when it didn’t — when a firm or disciplinary hand was needed — then problems could and did arise. Len Wein was similarly casual in his editorial style.
“Jim Shooter was Giordano’s polar opposite. Cutting his teeth in the 1960s as a writer under the tutelage of taskmaster editor Mort Weisinger, teenaged Jim was groomed to control with an iron hand. Under his 1980s post as Marvel’s editor-in-chief, the company experienced numerous creative and sales successes, but it was always clear that autocratic Shooter was the boss, that his word was final. Some folks had no problems following his direction, others did and resented him for it.
“These two editorial camps were incompatible. It was the ultimate DC vs. Marvel battle.”
One last timeline entry…
April 15, 1987: Jim Shooter is ousted as Editor-in-Chief of Marvel Comics.
That same day, George Pérez sends a note to Dick Giordano reminding him he still wants to do JLA/Avengers.
In the almost 20 years since the original project fell apart, either Marvel or DC would occasionally make tentative proposals to the other for a continuation of cross-company crossovers (with JLA/Avengers by George Pérez always high on the list). But one stumbling block or another always caused the negotiations to break down. Tom DeFalco indicates that from Marvel’s side, corporate owners would frequently dictate that Marvel concentrate on its own projects and not those of competitors.
It takes until 2002 for Marvel and DC (and several different editorial regimes) to get it together, but George Pérez completed the last pages of the 2003/2004 version of JLA/Avengers in February 2004.
Sometimes the dream doesn’t die.
–KC Carlson
March 2004
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- Bloggery committed by chris tower - 2206.12 - 10:10
- Days ago = 2536 days ago
- New note - On 1807.06, I ceased daily transmission of my Hey Mom feature after three years of daily conversations. I plan to continue Hey Mom posts at least twice per week but will continue to post the days since ("Days Ago") count on my blog each day. The blog entry numbering in the title has changed to reflect total Sense of Doubt posts since I began the blog on 0705.04, which include Hey Mom posts, Daily Bowie posts, and Sense of Doubt posts. Hey Mom posts will still be numbered sequentially. New Hey Mom posts will use the same format as all the other Hey Mom posts; all other posts will feature this format seen here.
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