Hey, Mom! Talking to My Mother #836 - What if your coding samples suck?
Hi Mom,
These days I am doing mostly sharing and not much commenting. I am hoping to change this trend. I have a lot of content in semi-finished states. But mainly, I am investigating things to do with coding and computer science with much of my spare time because I want to get a job in the field.
As such, I was drawn to this item on SLASHDOT, which I share here with a few of the most cogent comments.
I spent a great deal of time one night recently reading over all this and thinking about my own coding samples and whether I could survive any coding challenge or be successful in a job interview in which I explained code I had written.
I don't have this guy's problem as I have not worked in the field and so I have no proprietary code. But I am assembling my student code to show as example so being asked coding questions in interviews is very much on my mind.
Expect a lot more of this content for the rest of the year.
This is my study.
Ask Slashdot: How Can You Apply For A Job When Your Code Samples Suck? - Slashdot
https://m.slashdot.org/story/
Ask Slashdot: How Can You Apply For A Job When Your Code Samples Suck?
An anonymous Slashdot reader ran into a problem when looking for a new employer:Most ask for links to "recent work" but the reason I'm leaving my current job is because this company doesn't produce good code. After years of trying to force them to change, they have refused to change any of their poor practices, because the CTO is a narcissist and doesn't recognize that so much is wrong. I have written good code for this company. The problem is it is mostly back-end code where I was afforded some freedom, but the front-end is still a complete mess that doesn't reflect any coherent coding practice whatsoever...
I am giving up on fixing this company but finding it hard to exemplify my work when it is hidden behind some of the worst front-end code I have ever seen. Most job applications ask for links to live code, not for code samples (which I would more easily be able to supply). Some of the websites look okay on the surface, but are one right click -> inspect element away from giving away the mess; most of the projects require a username and password to login as well but account registration is not open. So how do I reference my recent work when all of my recent work is embarrassing on the front-end?
The original submission's title asked what to use for work samples "when the CTO has butchered all my work." Any suggestions? Leave your best thoughts in the comments. How can you apply for a job when your code samples suck?
I am giving up on fixing this company but finding it hard to exemplify my work when it is hidden behind some of the worst front-end code I have ever seen. Most job applications ask for links to live code, not for code samples (which I would more easily be able to supply). Some of the websites look okay on the surface, but are one right click -> inspect element away from giving away the mess; most of the projects require a username and password to login as well but account registration is not open. So how do I reference my recent work when all of my recent work is embarrassing on the front-end?
The original submission's title asked what to use for work samples "when the CTO has butchered all my work." Any suggestions? Leave your best thoughts in the comments. How can you apply for a job when your code samples suck?
First of all don't ever make available in any way your companies code unless you have written permission to do so. Second, you simply tell them that you can't provide said code due to NDA / compliance issues. Put together some great code on your own and offer that along with your reason. You will, by doing that alone, separate yourself from the pack as a guy wgo actually understands how businesses work. Finally, that is just going to get you a code monkey job. If you want a real job there has to be documentation including requirements and design specs, as well as test methodology with implementation of same. There is more, but if you get that fat you will be so far ahead of the pack you can worry about that tomorrow, which is exacrly when you should start preparing for the next time.
--
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
Re:Share the backend code? (Score:5, Insightful)
If you're looking for how well they architecture something or solve non-trivial problems, you might need more than 50 lines.
Indeed. I hire people, and I am looking for way more than 50 lines. At least 500 lines. It should be a non-trivial complete program that does something interesting. It is fine if it is something you wrote for a hobby project on your own time. In fact, it is BETTER if it is hobby code, since that indicates passion and a love of coding.
The first question I will ask is "Explain what this program does." I expect you to walk me through it, explaining as you go. It is surprising how many candidates can't do that ... since they clearly didn't write the code themselves. That is great. I love ending interviews early because I then have free time in my schedule.
Besides listening to a candidate explain their own code, I am looking for useful comments, logically named functions that do only one thing, consistently named variables, encapsulation of state, etc. The code should be readable and easy to understand. It should look like it was written by a competent professional who is proud of his craftsmanship.
I am looking for much more than a "grasp of the language". I am looking for a grasp of professional programming principles.
Re:Share the backend code? (Score:5, Insightful)
by serviscope_minor ( 664417 ) Alter Relationship on Sunday October 15, 2017 @04:34AM (#55371757) Journal
At least 500 lines. It should be a non-trivial complete program that does something interesting. It is fine if it is something you wrote for a hobby project on your own time. In fact, it is BETTER if it is hobby code, since that indicates passion and a love of coding.
Unless you're working on web front end stuff, or open source projects, people aren't going ot be able to share any of the work they've done. If you're then relying on hobby projects, you're restricting yourself to certain types of personality and you're going to miss a lot of great people.
Some of the best pogrammers I've known work had and well during work hours then switch off afterwards, meaning they don't have any hobby projects. I also disagree that to have a passion for something you have to live and breathe it 24/7.
Re:Share the backend code? (Score:5, Insightful)
Which means that you should contribute to open source projects now and then just to leave some traces of your worth.
Or even develop some demonstration application that you can show. Doesn't really matter what.
--
If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
Ignore them (Score:5, Insightful)
Most job applications ask for links to live code
In nearly all companies, what you wrote as part of employment is owned by the company. So asking for live code from job applicants is no different from asking for trade secrets, and there should only be one respond:
"It is both against my ethics and my employment contract to show any of my employer's code to you, but I can tell you my code is being used in production capacity in my employer servicing business function X, Y and Z. I am happy to provide codes which I do own so you can judge the quality of my work."
Essentially, you ignore the unreasonable requests and provide a reasonable alternative. Any company that rejected you for that, you wouldn't want to work there anyway, who knows what further unreasonable/unethical request you would get if they became your boss.
We needed to hire another coder a few years back. One of our greybeards said, "don't just look at resumes and gauge the firmness of their handshakes, make them take a coding test." So I wrote one up that specifically tested the skills we needed the new pair of hands for that fit onto six pages of good old-fashioned paper.
We got six bites for the position through our usual staffing firms. Three were kids barely old enough to go drinking with, so they're out because we needed someone to work, not to be taught to work, and three guys with about a decade plus. All three had impeccable resumes.
The first guy could barely figure out which way was up on the pages I gave him. The second figured out which side of the page was up but promptly got more than half the questions wrong. The last one promptly got slightly less than half the questions wrong. That's the guy we went with, and we lucked out because he learned quickly and has done good work for us.
The first guy, in the process of revealing to us that he couldn't tell C++ from a hole in the ground also came up with this gem among his many grumblings: "This code test is awful! You could get someone at way less than my rate to come up with it!"
The moral of this story: we've all interviewed Guy Number 1 at some point in our careers. Complaints about other people ruining your work and not being able to provide code samples because whateverwhatever will set off alarm bells. You need to prove you can code by yourself. If that means something as simple as maintaining a personal webpage where you just experiment with stuff, do it. If that means contributing to OSS, do it. If that means offering to take any and all code tests during an interview, do it. But what you don't want to do is start the interview with whining and complaining. Even if you're right, you'll be lumped in with all the jackasses that are all bluster and no technical competence and you won't even make it to the interview.
We got six bites for the position through our usual staffing firms. Three were kids barely old enough to go drinking with, so they're out because we needed someone to work, not to be taught to work, and three guys with about a decade plus. All three had impeccable resumes.
The first guy could barely figure out which way was up on the pages I gave him. The second figured out which side of the page was up but promptly got more than half the questions wrong. The last one promptly got slightly less than half the questions wrong. That's the guy we went with, and we lucked out because he learned quickly and has done good work for us.
The first guy, in the process of revealing to us that he couldn't tell C++ from a hole in the ground also came up with this gem among his many grumblings: "This code test is awful! You could get someone at way less than my rate to come up with it!"
The moral of this story: we've all interviewed Guy Number 1 at some point in our careers. Complaints about other people ruining your work and not being able to provide code samples because whateverwhatever will set off alarm bells. You need to prove you can code by yourself. If that means something as simple as maintaining a personal webpage where you just experiment with stuff, do it. If that means contributing to OSS, do it. If that means offering to take any and all code tests during an interview, do it. But what you don't want to do is start the interview with whining and complaining. Even if you're right, you'll be lumped in with all the jackasses that are all bluster and no technical competence and you won't even make it to the interview.
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Reflect and connect.
Have someone give you a kiss, and tell you that I love you, Mom.
I miss you so very much, Mom.
Talk to you tomorrow, Mom.
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- Days ago = 838 days ago
- Bloggery committed by chris tower - 1710.20 - 10:10
NEW (written 1708.27) NOTE on time: I am now in the same time zone as Google! So, when I post at 10:10 a.m. PDT to coincide with the time of your death, Mom, I am now actually posting late, so it's really 1:10 p.m. EDT. But I will continue to use the time stamp of 10:10 a.m. to remember the time of your death, Mom. I know this only matters to me, and to you, Mom.
Re: Well, Chris, here's what you do (Score:5, Insightful)